Cars.

[Ninjahedge]

I talked a bit with Shift on this. I am in the market for a decent Sedan/smaller SUV wih the median being $25K.

I have about 300 miles/wk in commuting and average about 50 miles a week on top of that (figure 3000 miles per year for non-commuting).

I would still lie to both see and feel the road, so land-yahts are out.

The models I have looked at online are:

Suzuki Kizashi
Nissan Altima3.5 SR
Honda Crosstour
Honda Accord EX-V6
Hyundai Sonata SE
VW GLI
VW Tiguan (?)
VW Jetta
Mazda CX7-S (?)
Mazda 6
Chevy Impala


Any other suggestions recommendations/warnings?

[lilith]

I don't really think you can tell what you're going to like until/unless you drive them. PITA, I know, but well worth the time!! :D

[shifty]

Agreed.

However, I think I'm taking Geminem's cue, and buying a 5-series BMW this go-round. I'm planning to buy 3-4 years old to pay 50% less.

[Wes]

I'm considering the VW Tiguan. We currently have a VW Touareg and the lease is ending this month. It has the same chassis as the Cayenne. I really like it, but we are looking to spend a little less. Tiguan seems to fit the bill.

[Ninjahedge]

The VW's seem OK, although I think I (big surprise) like the more expensive of the two... :(

The Tiguan just seems a bit more spare on the interior.... It may just be the tan interior they use for the photos, but it just feels very plastic-y...


As for driving them, that will be hard only in that i know I will like the sport sedans better, butthat is not the only consideration....


Now the "pre-owned" BMW's? i love them, but their prices (at least through official channels) are not necessarily 50% off. Most seem to be 25% off list, or just so outrageously appointed that the original price was rediculous....

The ONLY advantage to more luxury is that people, in general, tend to treat them better....

Difficult choices.....

[shifty]

If you go to an import dealer that isn't branded with a specific manufacturer logo you can find the deals. Carmax is one of those places for BMW. Lots of deals to be had. You can find 3-series 4doors with sport and luxury packages and Less than 50k miles under $25k all day long at their site. They supposedly guarantee no prior wrecks etc. As well.

[Ninjahedge]

Carmax? Cool. I guess BMW is just making $$ off the "certification"

Example (search under $30K/5 series, 25 miles around Hoboken):

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/cpo/modelsearch.aspx?enc=/eiUrYOZAxtXbrazY6tfkn/pNQD1A9N8mrEH1nMOD5CN+CC20RsVDJyYaSi3jPOrheIEXwJp6 b/RMTlkJFDH0xEp+kV7vIm/QrRHN3hnniiV3mi+OdfmJUzz4yYtqk4H

What about Edmunds?

[]LoL[Harm]

If you can I'd check around for a diesel or a hybrid that still qualifies for federal tax incentives. I received both a state and a federal tax break on the Jetta TDI I purchased last year (also got the cash for clunkers so in essence received over $5,600 back in direct money overall off the cost of the vehicle). I get on average 40 mpg now over the 15 I was getting in my Jeep. :)

Anything that will get you money back from the government and also lower your fuel costs would be a no-brainer as more money in your pocket means more hookers and cocaine!

[Ninjahedge]

Ahhh, opinions on Diesel though? Availability can be limited in certain areas (and for some weird reason they still charge so MUCH for it!)

[Wes]

Without the government incentives, the increased cost of the Diesel vehicles still won't justify the better fuel economy, if you are leasing or planning to keep the car for just a few years. The problem is that Diesel fuel cost even more than the premium gasoline. Last time I looked at it, it takes 5+ years to break even.

[]LoL[Harm]

My last car I purchased I kept for 12 years. You have to look at your car as you should your clothes, buy them to wear them out. Because cars are not an investment. I don't have an opinion on leasing if you lease than yeah, buying a diesel probably isn't worth it.

Here in Columbus unleaded is sitting around $2.58 I think (I don't know what premium is at), diesel is $2.83.

[shifty]

@Hedge : http://www.carmax.com/enUS/search-results/default.html?ANa=4294967020&Ep=homepage%3ahomepage+Make&AZ=10101&ADc=90

1st one returned for me is 2005 BMW 325 XI 4Door Sedan (54k miles) w/Premium Package, Navigation System, Sunroof and all the other bells and whistles. $19,998.

Using the navigation on the left, I whittled down to 5-series only. I found several loaded 525 and 530 models around $27k with low mileage, one as low as 36k miles. One of them I really liked, 2007 525 XI, had premium package, cold weather package, etc. Link: http://tinyurl.com/yafjnql

BMW isn't as unaffordable as it once was. 5-series is pluuuuuush.

[Ninjahedge]

Plush + Baby = no fun.....

I would like to find tight (engineering wise). I have always liked the more Spartan BMW's, they seemed to be "smart" rather than plush.....

[shifty]

If you just need smart and utilitarian, get a 3-series.

5-series just builds on the luxury component, but has all the same general features of 3-series.

I dunno, bang vs. buck, I just don't think you can Bavarian engineering. I find myself disgusted with the pricetag on a lot of the other German autos out there...

[Ninjahedge]

I know. I was looking at some and thought they were a LOT less expensive. There is too much cushioning on these guys price wise.

The other thing? I am noticing that a lot of arseholes drive BMW's. Go fig! ;)


Oh, the woman likes the Infinity CUV series as well. She is against the BMW's just for the fact she thinks the front grill looks like nostrils.... :confused:

I partially agree in that I liked them better when they were a bit more square, but I guess they found out that people think that luxury = rounded edges on everything.

This weekend is rained out, but I guess I have to go and do some serious test driving on these guys when I can.... I am really not ready for the mini-van! ;)

[lilith]

Don't know if this will help but it's an article on the worst SUV moneypits!
http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1361/The-Worst-Small-SUV-Money-Pits

[garm]

Great price and great guarantee are the Mitsubishis. I recently considered the Outlander because the price is so low that you can get it fully loaded. I find them a bit plain inside - but you really do get bang for your buck.

[Ninjahedge]

I avoided the Eclipse WAY back when, but things change in 15 years!!!! (wow, 15 years...).

Isn't the Outlander the Station Wagon, or am I thinking Subaru.......

[garm]

looks like station wagon - but its much bigger. We measured and my great dane fits in. You don't get the full height (clearance) of the SUV.

[Ninjahedge]

OK, looking more, the search is permutating.

My wife likes the styling on the Lexus and Infinity CUV's, but we are talking over $30K starting ("Oh, just get a used.....etc etc." I feel nervous about getting a used vehicle. Not many little old ladies from Pasadena left).

The Nissan Maxima looks nice, although most of the options are bundled, and trying to get all the info on one page is really difficult (they will tell you the HP, gas tank capacity and shoulder space, but not the MPG? I needed to "compare milage" to get that info. They hide it pretty well).

Altima is still in the mix.

Mazda 6 is in there too.

the VW CC looks good, but from what I hear, reliability is low and repair cost is high.

As for the Beemers, they are still looking nice, but that repair cost comes into play (what is the cost to replace the front brakes? Unconfirmed rumor being close to $1000 a pair....). Also the 3 series seems to be tight in the rear seating, although it would be hard pressed to be tighter than what I am in now.

Anyone hear any rep about these models though? Which ones are known not only as good performers, but "reliable". At almost 100K and 15 years, my old MX6 V6 has done really well. I would like something that would provide me with similar performance over time.....

[lilith]

http://www.lexisnexis.com.libproxy.uml.edu/us/lnacademic/results/docview/attachRetrieve.do?csi=7944&A=0.6635737399859937&risb=21_T8924711266&urlEnc=ISO-8859-1&smi=LOGOS&key=23558&componentseq=1&type=logo&pap=single
Consumer Reports

January 2010
CARS: Road tests, auto products, hot topics. NEWS: Challenger is the satisfaction champ.

SECTION: Pg. 47 Vol. 75 No. 1

LENGTH: 1141 words


The Dodge Challenger, a throwback muscle car, is the most satisfying car to own, according to our latest survey. Ninety-two percent of Challenger owners say that they would definitely buy their car again.
The Challenger displaces the Toyota Prius, which had earned the highest score for five straight years in our owner-satisfaction survey.
But will the Challenger, released this past spring, remain as pleasing as that new-car smell fades? Last year, for example, the tiny Smart ForTwo ranked among the most satisfying cars with 84 percent of its owners very satisfied, but it dropped in satisfaction by 9 percentage points this year. Many other cars make an appearance on the list when they're new but drop off once the novelty wears off.
The Ford Fusion Hybrid and the base Chevrolet Corvette rounded out the top three cars in our survey, edging out the Toyota Prius, Corvette Z06, and Mini Cooper Clubman.
American cars were more successful in making our list than they have been in the recent past. This year, their success rate was similar to that of the Asian automakers.
Survey respondents loved sporty cars, hybrids, and higher-end sedans. Together those categories accounted for 26 of the 38 cars rated most satisfying. Three of the six family cars that made our list were hybrids - the Ford Fusion Hybrid, Toyota Prius, and Toyota Camry Hybrid - as were the only small SUVs on the list, the front-wheel-drive Ford Escape Hybrid and Mercury Mariner Hybrid. Luxury cars were favorites as well.
For a car to make our list, 80 percent or more of its owners had to answer "definitely yes" to the question "Considering all factors (price, performance, reliability, comfort, enjoyment, etc.), would you get this car if you had it to do all over again?"
Our satisfaction Ratings come from the 2009 Annual Auto Survey, conducted by the Consumer Reports National Research Center. The Ratings are based on responses from Consumer Reports and ConsumerReports.org subscribers about more than 380,000 vehicles from the 2007 through 2010 model years.
WHAT OWNERS FIND SATISFYING
Besides asking people how much they liked their cars, we also asked what it was they liked most about them. For nine of the top 10 cars, driving qualities and styling earned top marks, which is not surprising because most were sporty cars. But those factors also figured prominently for the Ford Fusion Hybrid and Volkswagen Jetta diesel. That tells us that a car doesn't have to be fast to impress an owner with its handling, and it doesn't have to be exotic for an owner to like its styling. The Toyota Prius got a top rating in just one area, fuel economy. Evidently 44 miles per gallon speaks for itself.
DISAPPOINTING
At the bottom of our list were 10 cars that less than half their owners found satisfying. All were American. Seven were made by GM and three by Chrysler. The lowest-ranked car, scoring a mere 37 percent, was the four-cylinder Chrysler Sebring, followed closely by the Dodge Nitro SUV and Pontiac Torrent, which scored 38 percent and 40 percent, respectively.

[lilith]

MOST SATISFYING
DEFINITELY
MODEL BUY AGAIN (%)
SPORTY CARS
Dodge Challenger (V8) -*- 92
Porsche 911 Carrera S 89
BMW 135i -*- 87
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 87
BMW M3 -*- 85
Ford Mustang GT (V8) 83
Mini Cooper (hatchback) 83
Porsche Cayman -*- 82
Mazdaspeed3 80
ROADSTERS
Chevrolet Corvette (base) 89
Porsche Boxster -*- 87
Mazda MX-5 Miata 86
COUPES & CONVERTIBLES
BMW 335i (coupe & convertible) 81
SMALL CARS
Mini Coopers Clubman -*- 84
Honda Fit 83


DEFINITELY
MODEL BUY AGAIN (%)
FAMILY CARS
Ford Fusion Hybrid -*- 91
Toyota Prius 88
Volkswagen Jetta TDI -*- (sedan) 87
Toyota Camry Hybrid 82
Ford Fusion (V6) 80
Mercury Milan (V6) 80
UPSCALE CARS
Acura TL (AWD) -*- 88
Hyundai Genesis (sedan) -*- 84
BMW 335i (sedan, AWD) 83
Pontiac G8 (V8) -*- 83
Toyota Avalon 81
BMW 335i (sedan, RWD) 80
LUXURY CARS
Lexus LS 460 86
Mercedes-Benz S550 81


DEFINITELY
MODEL BUY AGAIN (%)
WAGONS
Volkswagen Jetta TDI -*- 85
Toyota Venza (V6) -*- 80
SMALL SUVs
Ford Escape Hybrid (FWD) 80
Mercury Mariner Hybrid (FWD) 80
MIDSIZED SUVs
Ford Flex -*- 85
LUXURY SUVs
Lexus RX 350 82
UPSCALE COMPACT SUVs
Volkswagen Tiguan -*- 80
MINIVANS
Honda Odyssey 80
COMPACT PICKUPS
Honda Ridgeline 80

Least satisfying
DEFINITELY
MODEL BUY AGAIN (%)
SMALL CARS
Chevrolet Cobalt (sedan) 49
Dodge Caliber 45
FAMILY CARS
Pontiac G6 (4-cyl.) 49
Chrysler Sebring (sedan, 4-cyl.) -*- 37
SMALL SUVs
Saturn Vue Hybrid -*- 47
Chevrolet Equinox (pre-2010) 46
Pontiac Torrent (AWD) -*- 45
Pontiac Torrent (FWD) -*- 40
Dodge Nitro -*- 38
COMPACT PICKUPS
Chevrolet Colorado (5-cyl). -*- 45
-*- Score based on one or two years of data.

[Radiation Burns]

As a bimmer driver (96 328I w 175k and 01 540I w 150k) I can tell you that stealership services are a ripoff, but if you can do your own maintainence (have the place and skills) they are very affordable. I changed the brakes all around on the 3 with good ceramics from Carquest for under 100.00 for the pads and 150 for the rotors and an hour of my time. The 5 uses the same pads, the rotors will be replaced with higher quality aftermarkets for around 200 for all 4 so really its a great way to go if you can do it. and the cars are good for 300k+ miles with proper maintainence.

[Ninjahedge]

The question would also be, are other non-"Certified" auto shops available to do this?

I will have to ask my cousin about it (mechanic by trade) to see what he says (I have no garage now, not even a driveway, so auto repair would be more difficult for me than it normally is.....)

I can see what you are saying though. The 3's look really nice and I would love to be able to test one out, but they are SO EXPENSIVE!

In reality, the ones that look like they are edging themselves into "affordable" are ones like:

Mazda 6
Toyota Corolla
Suzuki Kizashi
Nissan Altima (maybe Maxima?)
Honda Accord V6

The M6's styling on front is a little weird (looks like an insect from a Japanese horror movie), but the V6 at 260+hp (I don't remember the #) is nice.

I figure that for similar pickup to my own, ignoring gearing ratios (which I know you can't) I would need somewhere near 210 hp if I were going for a 3500 lb curbweight (right now I am at 2800 with a 168 HP.. F=MA, P = FD, I also believe that that is the classic 1/2 MV squared, but they all vary linearly with mass, so up the weight, up the HP 1 to 1)

Important features are still:

Durability
Milage
Sport feel (suspension and power)
Good rear seat space (kid chair(s))
Cost (duh)
Look (some of these guys look great, others.....)

Features are secondary. I have a portable GPS, so it is not vital to have an in-dash. Most cars seem to have a line-in aux jack and some have USB, so alternate music sources (portables) are always available. Heated seats? HA! Leather? Meh.

You get the point. Thanks for the input!

[Ninjahedge]

OK, test drives so far:

The Suzuki Kizashi is a nice looking car, handles well, and has some nice features for the price. It is decent off the line, but lacks punch.


The Honda Accord Sedan has punch, great mileage (about the same as the others) and the EX V6 can be had for about $24K from the one dealer I was talking to. The space is great, but the styling (especially interior) is boring and the one-fold rear seat is a disappointment. It still looks like the top candidate so far.


The VW CC was excellent on the road, very nice punch, and almost silent on the road (I barely felt 90 on 287, surprised the hell out of me). The rear seat only has 2 seats, however, and it a bit more tight. The car also FEELS tight, in both good and bad ways (tough visibility, especially rear, but a tight feel on the road). The other catch is that it costs more for the V6 than the others, although the interior is a bit nicer.


The BMW 325i (I believe) I took for a ride felt nice. Had a weird blind spot in the acceleration at about 10mph when tromping on the gas (gear search), and felt heavier than all the rest. It still could take the corners, but the seats were rather "benchy" and plain. The cost for ownership is VERY high, but retains value the best, and would require me getting a 2-5 year olf ~50K or less used vehicle.


I tried the Maxima SV yesterday, and while the power is definitely nice, and the price from Family is also affordable, it felt a bit tippy with a bit of a side motion when taking corners (like a shift). It felt heavier and more muscle-like. The interior, however, I did not like. While some of the style points were definitely better than the others, I felt like I was swiming in dead-space. I had to lean forward to reach the climate controls.

The BEST interior so far has been the VW. the BMW is almost too stark, the Accord a bit sparing, the Kizashi nice, but old-school LED-looking (low resolution LED radio display).

The only car I was not able to try so far that is still on the list is the Mazda 6 V6. The Mazda 6 V6 is difficult to find for a test drive, but has gotten good ratings on Cars, Edmunds, and some other sites. Also, the sales staff at Wayne Mazda is full of more shiznit than you can fling with a stick. ("The LARGEST dealership in the US.... but we don't have any to test drive, sorry we said we did on the phone").


Like I said, I seem to be leaning Accord, despite its blah styling, because of the performance and space. Let me know what you think.


(BTW, I did try the Mazda CX-7 as well, not really impressed. I did not like the high feeling, body roll, and limited visibility).


We were also thinking about the EX35, but the base cost is HIGH, it is a bigger vehicle, and does not seem to have any real cargo space. The G sedan is along the same line.



There is also the possibility of used, in any of these areas. ANY input on that would be welcomed as well.



I do not know if there are any other sport/luxury cars (Acura, Audi, Infinity, Lexus) that would fit my tastes (definitely in the used category) but any input on these would be welcomed.

Also, ANY OTHER SITES that would be good to post this on would be welcomed as well. It is hard to find good sites you can trust when asking questions like these!

Thanks guys!

[dragonash]

well, from a former mazda6 owner, it was a nice car for the money. That was 4 yrs ago.
I can only imagine their new Mazda6 is much better and you wouldnt be dissapointed.

I am in LOVE with my Infiniti G37S. I hate to lose it this October, but I might stay with the Infiniti family and go for the FX35. That 360 camera angle rocks my nuts when parking in tight spots.

However, I am looking to swindle a deal for a fully loaded Camaro. I know they arent selling and when compared to other cars, they only thing it has is an engine and an awesome look.

[Ninjahedge]

Problem is simple.

One income and still parking on the street makes me leery of spending too much. So going for a new FX is tenuous at best.

Also, 300 miles a week commuting adds up FAST. Milage is important (although 2-3 mpg does not make much of a diff).

So I am thinking used premium below $20G or (still) new middle ground.

Hell, I would LOVE to get a 1 year old, but somehow the dealers crank the price right back up again despite the devaluation on their buy-back...

[dragonash]

300 a week? ouch.

Hell, get a baseline camaro! lol
http://www.chevrolet.com/tools/byo/byoCustomizeVehicle.do?year=2010&brand=camaro&title=&region=40&evar10=byo_path_buildbytrim&pvc=19980

22k lol

It's sporty and is 29 mpg on the highway.

In all seriousness, I think the Mazda might be the way to go. Give it a shot, i think it falls in that "middle of the line" thing you are looking for.

[shifty]

Hedge, you should really drive the Mazda 3 hatchback. The Mazdaspeed package is great (mind you, I'm the typical lazy/dumb American, I drive stick, better control over performance).

Accord is a great car. Wife is about to buy the Crosstour. We've have 3 Accords over hte last 10 years, as I've mentioned prior.

PS - Infniti is just another Nissan with a diff't badge. Same as Honda vs. Acura, Toyota vs. Lexus, VW vs. Audi, etc.

[dragonash]

PS - Infniti is just another Nissan with a diff't badge. Same as Honda vs. Acura, Toyota vs. Lexus, VW vs. Audi, etc.

i was just talking about that with my father.
I was laughing cause when he got his brakes changed on his FX45, they said Nissan on it lol

Regardless, the G37 is still a beautiful car.


Totally forgot about the Mazda3 series.

[shifty]

Mazda 3 is probably the most fun out of the line. The turbocharged hatchbacks are both roomy, utilitarian AND insanely peppy with good handly. They're little pocket rockets, the manual tranny turbo'd model..... it was more fun than my souped up VR6 VW GTI (6cyl/5spd). And that thing pretty much hauled ass.

[dragonash]

Mazda 3 is probably the most fun out of the line. The turbocharged hatchbacks are both roomy, utilitarian AND insanely peppy with good handly. They're little pocket rockets, the manual tranny turbo'd model..... it was more fun than my souped up VR6 VW GTI (6cyl/5spd). And that thing pretty much hauled ass.

one thing i did notice about the mazda6 (i can only imagine the 3 is the same or worse since it's a lower model), was that it was very noisy while driving. Like...the outside noise and the engine wasn't muffled enough.

[Ninjahedge]

Hedge, you should really drive the Mazda 3 hatchback. The Mazdaspeed package is great (mind you, I'm the typical lazy/dumb American, I drive stick, better control over performance).

Accord is a great car. Wife is about to buy the Crosstour. We've have 3 Accords over hte last 10 years, as I've mentioned prior.

PS - Infniti is just another Nissan with a diff't badge. Same as Honda vs. Acura, Toyota vs. Lexus, VW vs. Audi, etc.

I kind of thought so, on many levels.

The Mazda Speed3 looks like a LOT of fun, but that is something my boss... I mean wife is saying "HELL NO" to. She hates hatchbacks, although this thing seems to have a lot going for it, and a decent price to match.

I also agree with you on Manual. But she cannot drive a manual, so if I want SOMETHING she can drive to the mall with (joy) I need an automatic.

The Accord felt nice, but very plain inside and out... I will have to see what year Accord changed its model so maybe I can get a used (1-2 year old) and avoid the out-the-door porice drop.

Question, my brother rants against the Timing Belt. Any reason?

As for the infinity, interesting. I assume the Acura is the upper scale Honda the same way? Any merit for the G series AWD (used?) [DOH!, just read the second part of that comment]

As for the Honda CT, I was OK on that, but again, my wife has a problem with the style. I wonder why I am listening to her so much when it is the car I will be driving all the time......

[Ninjahedge]

one thing i did notice about the mazda6 (i can only imagine the 3 is the same or worse since it's a lower model), was that it was very noisy while driving. Like...the outside noise and the engine wasn't muffled enough.

I am in a 15 year old V6 MX6.... It would be hard to be noisier than that!!!! (provided you got a mufler, that is).

[Ninjahedge]

Back OT.....


So I guess the tossup betwixt the 3speed and the Accord V6 is simply practicality?

The 3speed seems to have great reviews, but it more of a toy-car. I don't know if it would be the best for a baby seat and luggage in the back (although hatchbacks have more room)


The Accord has more space, a good deal of pep, and is a comfy car.

The others, like a used 5 series, G35X, or other top end car would have the risk of prior ownership, but less overall outlay/depreciation of investment since the original drop is said and done......

This is hard, especially when I just do not buy what I want and listen to too many different opinions (I say as I ask for more).

[dragonash]

Back OT.....


So I guess the tossup betwixt the 3speed and the Accord V6 is simply practicality?

The 3speed seems to have great reviews, but it more of a toy-car. I don't know if it would be the best for a baby seat and luggage in the back (although hatchbacks have more room)

The reason for not getting the Mazda3 was the simple fact that I didnt fit in it.

6'3 and the seat wouldnt go back far enough and I had no headroom.
Hope that helps. :)

[shifty]

... but that is something my boss... I mean wife is saying "HELL NO" to. She hates hatchbacks, although this thing seems to have a lot going for it, and a decent price to match.

Grow a pair, dude. You're the man of the household. Act like it.

Question, my brother rants against the Timing Belt. Any reason?

You never need to change a timing belt prior to 75k-125k miles on most cars, the former being an early chicken, the latter pushing your luck. I think the 4cyl has timing belt, V6 has timing chain. So, keep that in mind.

As for the infinity, interesting. I assume the Acura is the upper scale Honda the same way? Any merit for the G series AWD (used?) [DOH!, just read the second part of that comment]

Not sure about G-, Q-, L- or any other series of Infiniti. I don't know their line. If you want good AWD, buy a Subaru. Prepare to take it in the ass on MPG though. For AWD, you ditch ~10% fuel economy on the low side, more on the high side.

As for the Honda CT, I was OK on that, but again, my wife has a problem with the style. I wonder why I am listening to her so much when it is the car I will be driving all the time......

Please see: Grow a pair, dude. You're the man of the household. Act like it.

[shifty]

So I guess the tossup betwixt the 3speed and the Accord V6 is simply practicality?

Apples to oranges. Different class of car. Accord is Honda's flagship luxury sedan, where as the Mazda 3 hatch is a budget sport hatch. You can't compare the Crosstour either because that's Honda's flagship crossover. Different league with different pricetags to reflect that.

The 3speed seems to have great reviews, but it more of a toy-car. I don't know if it would be the best for a baby seat and luggage in the back (although hatchbacks have more room)

Just because it's "fun" doesn't make it a "toy car". It's popular with young and old because it's sporty looking, good options available, lots of aftermarket performance upgrades for it, bang vs. buck vs. potential upgradability is better than any other car in its league that I know of. Last time we saw a car like this, it was the 1999-2006 Volkswagen GTI 6-speed, which wasn't quite as roomy as this, and cost twice as much to fix.


The Accord has more space, a good deal of pep, and is a comfy car.

Again, this is a result of econo-practical-sport versus flagship-luxury-sedan.

The others, like a used 5 series, G35X, or other top end car would have the risk of prior ownership, but less overall outlay/depreciation of investment since the original drop is said and done......

The latter of which is what is important - buying a new car is the fastest depreciating investment you can make. It instantly loses 15% of its value when you drive it off the lot. In practical terms, that's an average of around $3,750 ($25k car) that you lose just by taking first-ownership of the vehicle. Most folks are upside-down on their vehicle loan for the first 2.5 to 3.5 years. Your best option is to buy used from a dealership like Carmax that offers a full warranty, no-lemon protection, and assurance of a clean record (no fleet cars, no flood or fire damage, no prior accidents, etc.)


This is hard, especially when I just do not buy what I want and listen to too many different opinions (I say as I ask for more).

There is no better opinion than you walking into a place, test driving a car, loving the way it feels, shopping out a good price, then driving it home knowing this is the car you loved. At some point, you need to just sit down and do what I do every 3-4 years:

Decide if you're only buying new, or you're open to used.

Figure out your price range for a new and/or used car.

Decide what kind of car you want to buy.... coupe? sedan? hatchback? crossover? SUV? 2dr? 4dr? 3dr? 5dr?

Go to manufacturer websites for the major name brands and look at the new cars that are available. Find body styles which are appealing to you personally. Ultimately, if you don't like the body style....what's the point in buying it? The outside of a car is what you see every time you get into it, it should be something you like.

After you've made that list, locate local area dealers and stop in to sit in the car. If it feels ergonimically correct for you - everyone is different - then take it on a test drive. If a sales guy pressures you, or even talks to you, tell him you're looking at buying later this year when your lease on your <insert car here> is up - yes, Lie to them, they're going to lie to you anyway, you've already been lied to once by the Mazda dealership.

Next, if you're open to a used car, stop by Carmax or AutoNation or some similar place and get a salesguy to walk the lot with you so you can look at cars. Make a list of cars that look good to you, then have him pull pricing to narrow down what's in your range. Have him pull the keys for a few that fit for you and sit in them. If they feel good, test drive them. Same as the new car dealership.

This is ultimately the only way you're going to be happy that you exhausted your options and got the best fitting car for you.

[lilith]

I have an Infiniti G35 for a couple years now... I LOVE it! I think I mentioned before that listening to people tell me what a nice car I have just never gets old! :cool: It looks nice, it rides nice, it has plenty of room, average cost for repairs, plus I bought it used for a couple thousand less than the web sites said it should cost. :)

And yes, it is really just a Nissan. I had looked at a Nissan a couple weeks earlier that was exactly like it, but sold before I could make up my mind a few days later. I waited two weeks and there it was, the same exact car only with the Infiniti logo on it! :D Same year, same mileage, same colors inside and out, same dashboard, same features, same ride etc... Amazing really, they could have been identical twins!! lol :p

[shifty]

A lot of people don't know that the G35 and the 350Z share the same engine.

[dragonash]

A lot of people don't know that the G35 and the 350Z share the same engine.

i dont fit in the 350Z... lol


The Z is just overpriced in general though. Same engine, no options, same damn price of the G37S ;p

That Nissan GTR is a beast though. A guy on my block has one fully loaded. Definitely looks intimidating and guess what? The insides look like my car! lol


Ninja - get the GTR, it shouldnt run you into the ground too hard ;)

80k+

[Ninjahedge]

>sigh<


The decision just gets harder....

Oh, and the deals that are ending at the end of the month... :P

[shifty]

don't rush to buy just because of a deal. what's worse - spending a few xtra bucks, or being stuck with a car you can't stand or don't fully like?

[Ninjahedge]

I am leaning more towards the Accord, although the Mazda 6 V6 might be a contender as well (If I can find one to test drive).

Odd thing is, getting into a Speed 3 is like pulling teeth! Nobody is willing to send me out in one! I can understand them not wanting to have joy-riders just taking a trip, but requiring me to sit down and talk deals BEFORE test driving it? C'mahn!

Oh, and talking to one sales person I was hung up on when I asked them to double check if they had a 6-V6 on lot to test drive because I had been told that before by others when there were none available.

Twice.

I can see why car salesmen get bad names. There are enough of them out there that are asses.

[Wes]

Yea, some area are more so than others because there ARE people who just want some joy ride.

[Ninjahedge]

OK, I just got it!

I am excited, but I am still not driving it yet (it is in the public Garage until I get the parking sticker and also hear from my insurance agent...)

Honda Accord EX-L V6 Sedan, Grey Metalic w/black interior. Nice car, and comfy! makes my Mazda MX-6 feel small even though I only drove it a few blocks to park it! ;)

Thanks for the help guys. So many vehicles were great. I loved the Crosstour, but it was just too expensive. the CC was great too, but not the right price/size. The Maxima would have been good, but it felt TOO big (something about the styling) and the efficiency was less. The Mazda 6V6 was the same. Good feel, but 25 highway (compared to 29) was too big a jump. I could practically get a Murano for that kind of Highway Milage.

The Kizashi did not have enough pep. It was a nice little car though, and the 3-Speed was a blast, but not something I am ready for yet (it is a toy and would take a bit of learning for its snappy clutch).

I feel bad I did not go with the guy I asked the most questions of, but when I asken my last pricing question:


My wife has been doing some calling around and has found a better deal with a bit more selection at Tarrytown Honda.


The bottom line price (all fees included + tax) was given at $27,252.


I do not know if their deals are the same as yours in regards to the Accord rebate (they did not say...yet) but I did want to give you a heads up and a chance if we decide to rush and get the lower price before the deal expires.


If you need any other information to prove my quoted price, I would be happy to forward it to you. I really do not like playing games and just want to give you the strait shot as soon as I get it myself.

I made a mistake myself with it, the actuall offered was $27,752, not 252..... but still.....

Please let me know on what vehicle that price is for, and I'll gladly see if it's something we can do.



Regards,
XXX
XXX
Route 23 Honda



PS: Please clarify when you say "all fees included + tax". Fees are not taxable, so it is tough to calculate a figure that is "all fees included + tax".

Please let me know if this is the pricing you have received:


2010 Honda Accord Sedan EX-L V6

MSRP: 29815
Your Price: 26588.8 + Tax
Documentation: 249
DMV: 399
Tire Tax: 7.50
Online Registration: 7.70
Total: 27252 + Tax

The thing was, I was only looking for a better price, I was not looking for a "are you sure this is what they told you" deal.

My final word:

The price I was quoted was an out the door final price including all costs, tax and other fees.


I am sorry we were not able to come to something after all the work you put into showing me your car lines. You were one of the most courteous salesmen I encountered in my search, and I regret not being able to conclude our contact with a positive message for you other than praise of your good nature but I regret to inform you that I have purchased from another source.


I seriously hope that this does not effect your monthly quota (to any significant degree), and be rest assured that if anyone asks I will be more than happy to send them your way in the future.

Last response:

have reviewed the pricing you have received, which you state is $27252 out the door (for the 2010 Accord Sedan EX-L V6), including all taxes and motor vehicle fees. This pricing cannot be reached. Once you are ready to sign the paperwork and the figures change, please do not hesitate to come back to me. I have been nothing short of fully up front with you regarding all pricing.


I feel bad, but a price is a price. His final offer was $25,886 (+7% tax, +249 docs, +299 DMV estimated = $28,250, then about $15 ibn incidentals). The final cost came out to $27,550. that is OTD. Not bad when even the list is +$29K. If he just offered similar, within a few hundred, or sweetened the deal with some incidental additions like splash guards, door rails, cargo nets, whatever, I would have been more likely to go with him for the work he did..... >shrug< $700 is not chump change...


Hopefully I will be able to drive and park it soon, and I am praying to the anti-door-ding god!!! ;)

[lilith]

My Mom just bought the same car!! :p

[Ninjahedge]

EEK!

I know, I saw so many old folks buying these V6 power plants. I was thinking "why do they need this?".

It is not like the old guy buying his retirement toy, but people who will NEVER use the full 270 HP on anything but hitting the wrong peddal at a stop light and running into a storefront! (Serious).

[shifty]

I test drove the damned Crosstour, but you could barely see out the back window and it had nasty blindspots so we dumped that thought. The CRV didn't have enough power. Test drove a couple of Volvos, didn't like them. We have never driven a Nissan/Infiniti we liked, and won't buy Toyota/Lexus (resale value is tanking).

We're going to Carmax, will probably buy a fully loaded '07-'08 BMW X3 for around the same price as a new Crosstour. Carmax has a buttload of them available.

[Ninjahedge]

BMW was great, but the cost and the RWD were detriments.

Also, if I remember right, the SUV milage wasn't so great.

The CT was pretty good except for exactly what you mentioned, the rear visibility. They really need to make that rear window wider somehow, it just had nothing out the back (it was very similar to the CC in that respect, but the CC was a much tighter vehicle....)

After driving the Accord for a few days, I can say I miss driving the MX. There are seveal things on it that I know I just have to get used to (pedal position, window height, etc) but it just is not as much "fun".

Going automatic feels like a loss right at square 1, then the handling, although more responsive, is more roll-y and has less of a "center spot". The acceleration is definitely more, but it aint the same when you do not have the power to predict and downshift ahead of the pedal press....


Good car, but it makes me feel old!!! ;)

[shifty]

SUV mileage is the comparable to a Honda Accord V6/Crosstour.

I am on the fence myself, I'm considering the Dodge Challenger. My wife would let me buy it, too.

[Ninjahedge]

Warning though. Ride in it, or just SIT in it for more than 10 minutes.

i am experiencing problems with my legs after driving in it over 20 minutes. (My legs are too long).

If I raise the seat to get support, it cuts off circulation. If I don't, then my knees are in the air and my ankles support half my leg weight making it uncomfortable to keep in one position too long.

It is depressing because this did not feel like a problem on the test drive, but it is bugging me now. I hope it is just a "getting used to it" situation and not something that will bother me as long as I own it.....

[edit] I looked up stats and it is only a 1.5 inch difference in front leg room between the Accord Sedan and the MX-6 (1995). But that 1.5 inch difference is enough to remove the kink from my leg..... Thing is, all reviews state its leg room as "ample" so I do not think I would be able to find anything more accomodating very easily. It is a good car, but after driving another for 15 years....


Oh, one other thing, I am falling asleep in it. It is comfy and I do not have to pay attension to anything (like engine RPM) while driving. I never realized how much I actually paid (subconcious) attension to these things until I no longer had to.....

I kind of miss it, but I did it for Kiddie Space in back, and the possibility of the woman driving it soon........

[shifty]

i am 6'2" and i have never experienced the problem you're having.

[Ninjahedge]

I know. My legs are long Shift, I have a short torso. 34 inseam.

But whatever, people are built differently.

[]LoL[Harm]

So is it the distance from the seat to the pedals or the seat height? Great thing about most Honda/Accords, there's a good aftermarket, and a new seat isn't overly expensive. :)

[Ninjahedge]

I have seen that.

LOTS of things that are made specifically to install something new even in the latest models.

I have already pried the panels off the side and under the steering wheel to run n audit jack from the AUX jack in the center armrest up to the LHS of the windshield (for the GPS) and did the same for the PS. Looks much better than a bunch of wires string and looped around every available lever/ledge.

The seat is getting more comfy as I get used to the new seating position. You do not realize how much you shift your frame to accomodate things like Manual Transmission and seat height, but at least my leg is not falling asleep anymore. I will let you know more when I do a longer one-shot trip if this holds true.

The car feels nice, but it sure as hell is not as aggressive as the old Mazda. It has more balls, but it feels a bit heavier and rolls a bit. Ironically, the steering seems more sensitive (not as much of a null spot in center) and that makes driving on the highway a bit more difficult, especially when you have to concentrate on more than just the road ahead of you (Jr). A slight shift in your arm makes a noticable difference in your direction, and the Mazda was more forgiving with that (although responded nicely with a definite movement). I think the ratio is just different...

As for other things, XM SUCKS!!! Sorry, but you have a tweeter mounted up near the rear view (side) you hear every wisp and "Kishhhhh" distortion on "S" and "T" vocalizations, symbal hits and applause. Drives me NUTS!

I can't believe that they charge $10 a month for so-so quality (I have heard good 128 rips that sounded better).

The HUD is very limited. Very plain txt. Amazing that they do not spend an extra $100 on a decent OLED or better graphics on the basic setup rather than something that looks a little less like an LED alarm clock on steroids..... (or one of those LCD games!!!!).


Not a bad car, all in all, but I think everyone got grey!!!! ;)

[shifty]

I'm 33 on the inseam. We're not that much diff't. I think you may just be missing your Mazda.

[Ninjahedge]

Well, did a longer ride down to the shore and my butt was hurting....

I really do not know why, it may just be that the seat has not...um..."conformed" to my bony arse yet.

The milage so far is disappointing. Where I was able to, on average, get about 27 MPG to and from work, I am now getting 24 on a car that is supposed to be rated an AVERAGE 29 mpg highway (My old car was rated at 28). I do not know if this is "break in", and I have kept the RPM below 3000 99% of the time (no deliberate tromping the pedal. I have since reached 4000 rpm twice in the 1000 miles since getting the car)....

It is nice, but plain (I feel old). Has more room, but not much practical to be able to utilize the extra trunk space (since the bottom is not flat, things like Milk Crates do not fit in the corners nicely. You need to get creative).

Upsides? It is EXTREMELY popular, so there are DOZENS of good sites to go to for mods, accessories and other things. It is quiet, has some pep and strength, and rides a lot quieter than my old machine.

I just hope that the milage gets better or there was not much of a reason to go for it over some of its less efficient brethren....

[shifty]

Well, the V6 and I4 both get about the same mileage on that car. What you're getting sounds about right for in-city driving if you keep your foot out of the pedal (which can be hard, it's got power for sure). Remember, your new car probably has 50% more cylinders, 65% more horsepower and 80% more weight, which means for more fuel usage. If you wanted crazy fuel economy, you should've bought a VW 4cyl 2.0Turbo (Jetta/Golf/whatev), but you'd probably have paid $6k more at least and got less of a car, luxurywise.

I always got the leather package, and the seats are great, I have a bony ass also. Which did you get?

[Ninjahedge]

V6 EX-L

Dk Grey outside, black interior.

Just FYI, driving at about 70 mph, average, down to the shore and mixed milage elsewhere (aso highway) got just below 25mpg this past week.

The seat was a bit uncomfy after 2 hours when coming back (got caught in traffic that should never had been there, a lot of late-leaving day-trippers). I would like to be able to open it up soon, but I am afraid I will forever ruin its economy... :(

[shifty]

nonsense. opening up a car only affects the MPG at the time you're opening it up, so you'll only see it on that tank. jumping on the accelerator in a car almost never does permanent damage to a car.

[Bald_Yew]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWnAdB-vkXo

[Wes]

Lol

[Ninjahedge]

nonsense. opening up a car only affects the MPG at the time you're opening it up, so you'll only see it on that tank. jumping on the accelerator in a car almost never does permanent damage to a car.

Cool,

So aside from not blowing half your oil out the exhaust in the first 1000M, what is the reason for the "break in" period (1000-1500M)?

[shifty]

break-in periods are very controversial. some people say you need to jam the gas and get on it a couple times right off the lot. others say to baby it, don't drive the same speed for too many miles straight, etc. the reality is, you should drive it like you want. it's an engine. if it's going to trash, it's going to trash. after you've built and rebuilt a few, you quickly realize that as long as you get routine maintenance, you're not going to see much difference.

[Zaphod]

Speaking of cars... I'm in the market for a decent, old 4x4. I think I've narrowed it down to a '74 bronco, a '97 Defender 90, or an '72 International Scout.

My preference is the D90...always wanted to get one, but it's in excellent condition and quite pricey, especially in comparison to the other two (~30k vs 8k & 4k), then I'd go Bronco then Scout...But I'll have to look at the Bronco and D90 since they're in the area. The Scout is in Mississippi, so that would be my last choice anyway.

Anyway, this isn't going to be a show vehicle or anything. It's going to be a haul my ass to the dump, home depot, and campgrounds type vehicle.

Bronco-
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_zvdV1aarQ9o/TBBVdYJUcsI/AAAAAAAACKE/mvzgyHAi814/74Bronco.JPG


D90-
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_zvdV1aarQ9o/TBBVdzKDMAI/AAAAAAAACKI/jhZUur_OFlA/97D90.JPG


Scout-
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_zvdV1aarQ9o/TBBVd0Sk0YI/AAAAAAAACKM/fv4e3MXEJc4/72%20International%20Scout.JPG

[shifty]

go with the bronco.

the scouts have problems with rust in the spring perches/pockets. broncos have a plethora of internet information and aftermarket parts, they're cheaper and easier to fix. stick with the older ones, though, like you seem to be doing - late 60/early 70.