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Ninjahedge
12-02-2010, 09:38 AM
OK,


I swore at the "HR" woman today.


She did not like the way I re-arranged the coffee boxes and commanded me to change it.


When I protested, she said "Well [the boss] would not like it that way" (BS) and started talking in the third person "we" don't like that, etc etc.


When I finally started re-assembling the shelves in the lower way, she did not like the way I was doing it and physically shoved me away. I told her I did not like it when she spoke to me in the third person like that and that she was not representative of everyone. The head drafter (nice guy... until now) chimed in and said "I don't want to hear any of this either, (I agree with her) stop it".




My clever response was "Go fk yourselves".




Real great.




I am a total fk up when it comes to situations like that. I may be 100% in the right in my feelings and position, but in the right does not make swearing at her right.


I have no future here. I have ruined it. Not that this is a gold mine. I have wanted out of here since the 2nd week. I have been focusing on too many things and getting nothing done at home....

I don't expect any solutions from any of you guys, or sympathy. I just needed somewhere to vent......

:(

dragonash
12-02-2010, 11:54 AM
hey man, you know me.

I say "f" them. But you know, if they do start anything, she "shoved" you?
If you REALLY don't care about the place, she physically touched you and berated you in 3rd person (verbal abuse from an HR person).

Start throwing lawsuit around (just to make them sweat a little...not that you would actually do it) lol

BTW, I dont remember what you got hired for...but it definitely wasn't for facilities things, right?

If not, then why is HR commanding you to rearrange **** that they or facilities should be doing?

The important thing is, you need to be the FIRST to complain. Or else it looks like you are retaliating.

Ninjahedge
12-02-2010, 02:02 PM
DA, I already threw out the "lawyer" line a bit (once). The only problem I would have is being a big individual. If I was still 6' at 140 a judge would look at me and think SlimJim, but 30 pounds heavier and somehow I should be able to take physical beratement from an OC HR Mother Hen and deal with it.

Well, maybe I should. I still do not like being physically "adjusted" by a "co-worker".

The thing is DA, I had already re-arranged it so that we had less of those damn boxes strewn about. You can re-attach the shelves to get 3 levels of boxes (12) rather than 2 (8). This would fit the other stragglers right in and free up some counter spacer

But that was not how SHE liked it. So she asked who did it, and as soon as I told her she COMMANDED me to change it back, siting the "boss wants it that way". (Did I tell you she was telepathic?).

As I was doing so, she did not like the way I was doing it (you have to smack the shelf to get it to pop out) and told me "Go away, I'll do it" from whence she shoved me out of the way.

Then came my questioning, the chiming in by one of her long term co-worker friends (who is a passive so naturally she likes him) and my outburst.

My key mistake was not the swearing, it was the appellation.

If I had used a lesser word, like "screw" that would have been better, but a simple "**** this" instead of "Yourselves" would have taken the onus from swearing AT to just swearing.

So whatever. I really need to get out of here. I need a vent. I need a social outlet.

All I have left are beer and games and they are not enough. I shouldn't have beer every night, and my wife hates it when I play. Unfortunately, w/o MP online, I have very little contact with ANYONE else now.

I need to find a club or something so I can open back up again.......


Thanks DA.

dragonash
12-02-2010, 04:28 PM
well, not to harp on it, but your size has nothing to do with someone pushing you or verbally insulting you.

Her hands should not have touched you at all.

Anyway, you've been there for over 6 months, i say start looking and if you get canned, milk some unemployment and still threaten the lawyer thing (even if it is just to make them sweat it out a bit)

have you been hunting for another gig?

=A!M=OakWind
12-02-2010, 06:07 PM
My key mistake was not the swearing, it was the appellation.

No, the key mistake was leaving a witness.

lilith
12-02-2010, 11:27 PM
I don't know, if she berates people and talks in the third person and pushes people physically, you may not be the only person there who hates her. :) Will your boss defend you? Are you in a union? I'd file a grievance or a lawsuit faster than lightning!!! CYA

Ninjahedge
12-03-2010, 09:37 AM
Lil, my boss does not care. He has his own company here and does not want to handle this kind of thing, so she takes care of a lot of the admin duties and exerts her power over all.

She is friends with those that obey her, and is snarky to everyone.

There are many that have had problems with her, but all the active ones have either left or been fired. So all that remain are passives that either do not say anything or simply shrug it off. She has fired anyone she can that she does not agree with (one secretary was "laid off" because of lack of work...supposedly. Less that 2 months later we have 1 full timer and 2 part time secretaries taking her place.....)

My bad luck is that I am the canary in the coal mine. I am the bright light in a swamp. I attract all the bugs. The three people here at work that everyone has had various problems with I have not only had problems, but not sat still about it.

One staten island lazy stereo typical Italian American threatening me physically. One lazy drafter that does not tell you what they are doing, does not ask any questions when something is unclear, and is generally not interested in anything but telling you to talk to the hand, and then the HR woman from hell.

I know what they are doing is wrong. I know they are not nice people. The problem is, they do not conflict with each other, and they have been here much longer. So no matter how many here may have had problems and have not said anything, they are still here. The place is still running.

It does not matter how many child beaters are working at your firm, if you disagree with too many of them, you are wrong no matter how wrong they might be. Propriety in seniority.

Ninjahedge
12-03-2010, 09:38 AM
And yes, I started looking again last night.

There is not much out there.

I will start looking in earnest again this weekend and keep it up until I find something.

Hopefully I will before my B-Day in Feb.

dragonash
12-03-2010, 11:05 AM
yeah, you are in a small company that is the exact opposite of corporate.
Been there done that.

I went off on the bosses own brother (who was brought in for a pity trip) when I was freelancing PC stuff for a construction site.
The guy was a complete ass and I was actually on good terms with the receptionist when i worked there (he HATED it). Why you ask? Cause the first day he was hired, he tried to kiss her during lunch lol

One day he took her drink from the fridge while she was out sick and I said it was a scumbag move. He tried to pull rank and said "you have no idea what type of relationship I have with her (she hated him)" Out loud in front of everyone, I said "I know she doesn't want to have anything to do with you after you tried to kiss her last afternoon"

Oh man that was fun. lol But, since it was a "non corporate" company and the boss was absentee, **** like that just went on.

Eventually, I left before they can let me go, but the business was dying and the checks kept on coming later.

With the people i knew there, they said the brother took over the IT stuff, screwed over the boss (his brother) and the next thing i know the boss is calling me again for passwords. I in essence told him FU, you didnt back me when you should have. But really said "you left it up to your brother, he changed all the passwords. Im working elsewhere"

Guess the moral of the story is people get what they deserve.

I'm sure that ass is having fun making minimum wage and paying for child support too ;p

garm
12-03-2010, 12:02 PM
First time offense requires a warning and coaching. They cannot just up and fire you because you said some bad words to someone. They have to build a case of habitual issues/complaints before they can take action to terminate you.

She's HR and should know better then anyone these rules; certainly the rules that say you cannot touch other employees (which she did).

Apart from hating being where you are and not liking all the people around you - you should be safe.

Your next actions should be; go see your boss, say that you were having stressful week outside of work and it carried over. Next, say to your boss that you want to set up a meeting between you and the HR person to offer an apology (with your boss present). But do not leave out the fact that you were pushed; indicate that the action made you swear.

garm
12-03-2010, 12:12 PM
Remember, you taking the first action indicates you realize a mistake was made, but that you are adult enough to address it and move beyond it

dragonash
12-03-2010, 02:09 PM
i dunno. it's also showing he is at fault. His actions came as a result of her poor attitude and "man handling" him.

Besides, it is a notorious fact that most HR people are BAD PEOPLE lol
Even at my fiance's place of work where it's non profit - trying to help people; her stories about the HR people are amazing.

She herself actually went right up to a big HR person (fat puertorican lady) and said "if you want to take it outside, we can do it right now"

This coming from a skinny red head irish/italian chick from Strong Island lol God I love that woman! Nothing came of it, but the HR lady never messed with her again ;)

So Ninja, this isn't rare what you have gone through, but in my opinion (for whatever its worth), if you do decide to act first, I say dont act apologetic like you were in the wrong. Lodge a complaint about her and start to document things.

lilith
12-05-2010, 07:15 PM
As the story goes, she physically pushed him. He didn't push her back, although a lot of people might have. He controlled himself enough to not react physically to a physical assault. So, yea, swearing at people isn't really good work type behavior, but really... who hasn't said something at work they wish they hadn't? :o

I can see why you'd think it was bad but it shouldn't be the end of your job. I like Garm's idea of talking to her, but not alone. I like it for all of the reasons that Garm said. especially "Remember, you taking the first action indicates you realize a mistake was made, but that you are adult enough to address it and move beyond it "

And don't expect an apology from her. She doesn't sound like the type. Just say what you have to say because you know you have to say it and then let it go. Ever read "Looking out for #1"? That's basically all you're doing. Looking out for yourself. Even if it doesn't make her respect you, which it could very well do, at least you can respect yourself for being more mature than she is.

Uh, just a little advice about apologizing. An apology that includes "I'm sorry, but...." is not an apology at all. It's blaming the other person and most people see it and feel it that way. Personally, I would just say that I didn't like the way the whole thing played out, that you shouldn't have sworn at her and that you know better than that. You could throw in that you hope nothing like that ever happens again so that you can work together.

It avoids the whole false apology or giving her an out. And, no matter how she responds you just say you understand and then say thank you. And that's if she turns into the evil creature you know she is or if she turns around and apologizes to you. Anything you say after your original statement would just be considered goading or trying to prove you are right. That's not the point, the point is that you hope that you can work together in the future. Simple.

I was a union rep for many, many years and I saw so many of these situations. Not doing or saying anything at all leaves it to fester and grow. It WILL come back to bite you. On the other hand, a false apology is worse than no apology at all. The point is that even if you don't respect her, you respect her position... given that she could - and has gotten people fired before. Keep what you have to say simple, if she wants to "chat" about it, just repeat your original statement. Bite your tongue if you have to... really! But make sure you document what happened both the original situation and the follow up conversation. If you don't have an advocate or union, the writing it down right away does protect you at least a little.

I think you'll be okay though. Really! :)

shifty
12-05-2010, 08:27 PM
Told ya that wasn't the right job for you.

Ninjahedge
12-05-2010, 10:37 PM
I will have to search for that Shift, but I kind a knew in the 2nd week it wasn't.

The problem is, not one of 4 HH's I am in contact with has come up with a single thing in 6 months, even after being contacted twice.

I applied to a few jobs, but heard nothing yet.

Unfortunately, by the strictest of definitions, this is not the first incident. It is more like the 4th. 2 were with a drafter that nobody has gotten along with, not even the senior staff, but she is, for some reason, the CEO's pet or something (and no, not THAT way).

One was with the guy from SI that threatened me physically when I commented, in general, that something was stupid. Not what he was doing, just in general. Unfortunately, I did not know that he was under a lot of pressure, had an annoying guy from ConEd on him AND kept having his nad's taken from him by the CEO making all his decisions, contrary to what he did, after he had already made them.

From what I have heard, nobody gets along with these guys when it comes to issues like these. I was the only one stupid enough to:

a) Say something.
b) Stay.

So, after coming back to her a few hours later on Thursday and saying "I know we do not agree on things, but that was the wrong way for me to handle it. It was Unprofessional and I am sorry".

I was told, shortly after posting to you guys to "Take the rest of teh day off (unpaid) and go home. Come in Monday and tell me why this job is important to you".

"I have employed many people in my time, thousands (BS). I have had some real arseholes before, but I have never had this many problems with anybody before".

Thanks for calling me an arsehole AFTER making me come in and sending me home. He could have told me Thursday night when I went in to talk to him, but no.... He is not mean, he is just a nebbish relaxed Jewish guy that does not want to manage. He just wants to make all the key decisions and let other people handle the other stuff, like whipping the subordinates.

Now I have to come up with a reason to stay. the only one that comes to mind, which is true, is that it means a lot to me. If it DIDN'T, then I would not care where the coffee was, I would not care about how much stuff was left in the fridge, or even how many times I needed to do something before it was done. It would be a job, a paycheck, I would do my work and go home at night.

The problem is, I care too much. I need to be friendly and in contact with everyone, even when they do not seem to feel the same. I try to treat my subordinates as equals and let them know why I am asking them to do something, and I try to consider all my co-workers as friends in one way or another, and treat them as such. It hurts when someone yells at me, for whatever petty reason. And it really hurts when I am not afforded the same respect I try to give everyone around me.

If I did not care, it would not hurt.

I learned a lot about things that I would not have gotten at a larger firm, and for that I am grateful. I just do not want it all to end over something as petty as this.



100% truth.


The key is. I care for just about EVERYTHING in life like that......

Ninjahedge
12-06-2010, 02:27 PM
K.


I told him something similar. How I consider this to be a part of my life now and as such, some things bother me more than they should.

I told him that the main thing is that I care too much. If I did not care I would not have any problem with these things, but since I feel more involved with it now... well....


Also, I told him I learned some things here that I would not have learned in a larger company. Which is true. I told him I did not want to lose the opportunity to miss out on more.

I was asked how I got along at the other companies I worked with. I said fine. That the one I was with I was there for 8 years, so I learned who to interact with and who not to. Full truth being, I started working with a guy nobody could understand because of his loner ways and heavy accent and we stuck. Since he brought in clients, and nobody else stuck with him like I did... I stayed.

After that I had no problems with the guys I worked with at Cantor mostly because they were all engineers. I would also get into heated discussions with other engineers, but promptly apologize when things cooled down a bit. I did not say this, of course....

I am guessing I am a professional crow eater. Now I just have to learn how not to give a sh!t.

dragonash
12-06-2010, 03:55 PM
these guys are a$$holes.
pure and simple.

She pushed you and YOU needed to take the day off.
think about it

lilith
12-06-2010, 06:15 PM
these guys are a$$holes.
pure and simple.

She pushed you and YOU needed to take the day off.
think about it

Couldn't have said it better... kind of expected they'd take her side but that's ridiculous. She broke the law - you said something bad. hmmmm... I'm now on the find another job side! :) Maybe get a lawyer too in case they try to fire you so you won't get unemployment...

dragonash
12-06-2010, 08:19 PM
Maybe get a lawyer too in case they try to fire you so you won't get unemployment...

very very good point.

but i thought you needed to be fired to get UE...
unless you need to be laid off for "downsizing" or stupid stuff like that. If they say you were causing problems, then yeah, they can screw you.

=A!M=OakWind
12-07-2010, 02:24 AM
Depends on state law.

Ninjahedge
12-07-2010, 09:07 AM
True, and the wife is pushing me to try IT before I am too old and they illegally discriminate against hiring me! ;)

It seems like I get along better with techies than others.

Go fig. ;)

lilith
12-07-2010, 10:42 PM
Have you searched for jobs at indeed.com (http://www.indeed.com/jobs)?

Someone recommended it today and I wondered if it was any good.

I know for tech jobs that dice.com (http://www.indeed.com/jobs) is supposed to be the best.

Ninjahedge
12-08-2010, 09:04 AM
I have subscriptions to:

Careerbuilder
Jobfox
Monster

I also search:

Indeed
SimplyHired

And one other. The problem is, they are looking for a person who can do eevrything for nothing, or for someone willing to work out in Westchester (40+ minute commute, by car).

I will keep looking, and see if I can learn anything about SQL and see what it looks like on the other side of these doors.

dragonash
12-08-2010, 04:16 PM
The problem is, they are looking for a person who can do eevrything for nothing

no shock there.

I love the ones asking for
A+
SQL
MCSE
*throw in 3 other cisco/ms certs*
AD experience
Cisco experience
VOIP experience
law firm experience (wtf?!)

16/hr

Ninjahedge
12-09-2010, 10:10 AM
Add in that it is part time and contract (no OT, "Live or Die" contract, no vacation/sick, no benefits).

Anyway, just looking for what might be good to put on a resume that would put my resume begging under a more serious light......

shifty
12-10-2010, 01:10 AM
What I've noticed about resumes is this, after just hiring someone in IT a few months back: The more **** a person has in their resume, the less they often know. It seems that people are willing to list a lot of crap on their resume after having just casually touched on it for a few minutes. 50% of IT resumes in particular is fluff, and applicants are usually only really well versed in about 5% of their resume, and the good ones are in the 10-15% range.

The guy I wound up hiring went to Georgia Tech for 2 years, then dropped out to work in construction or something. At the tail end of the dot-com bubble, he got hired at a hosting company that specializes in adult film, spent 11 years slaving away for them. The guy had less on his resume than anyone else (we only found him thanks to my neighbor/friend sharing word of mouth), but he had more actual fundamental knowledge than any single person we interviewed, including some guys with their masters degree.

Most of our hires come from recruiting agents and our best hires come via word of mouth. But a lot of you people in Hoboken and NYC are a bunch of antisocials who don't mingle with others to the degree we folks in the south do, IMO, so not sure how much good that does you.

I've also gotten some good referrals from career counselors, which are under-used by people these days.

Something else I noticed ..... If you have a job already, you pass to phase 2 of consideration; if you've been laid off, you usually go right to the circular file. People don't want to hire anyone that's been laid off; "tainted goods", et al.

Ninjahedge
12-10-2010, 09:02 AM
It is odd that "laid off" is still bad when so many have been.

I can understand that that term means nothing when things are going well, but, as with my case, sometimes being good isn't enough (I was the third round after ALL new design at the WTC was stopped in the span of a week after the crash).

A career councelor might be the ticket for me. I need someone that can give me a bit of direction in this search if I want to change careers. Every time I look I get downright scared (not on the surface, but there is a part of me that fears failure.... It wants the safety even if that is unpleasant rather than take the risk on something that may prove to be a just plain HAPPIER situation...)

But knowing what is hindering you will not stop it, so....

The hardest thing is not only the unknown, but being a flea's whisker away from 6 figures to drop back into the 40's if I am lucky is quite daunting........


But having 15+ years of experience, a masters degree from a major player who PAID ME to go to them, and licensing and I am still below 6?

I gotta work on my people skills... :(

lilith
12-10-2010, 12:38 PM
Yeah, I was on a search committe recently and being currently employed matters. Volunteering gets your resume at least looked at, but none of those made it to the final round either. It's a shame really...

dragonash
12-10-2010, 02:28 PM
It is odd that "laid off" is still bad when so many have been.

yet what shifty says makes sense.
Although I'm kind of offended by his mingling thing. I personally think money makes money or at least connections. You can mingle all you want, but if sonny boy comes along or a family friend, you're out.

Anyway, I have seen a lot of "job jumping" even though the economy is the way it is

dragonash
12-10-2010, 02:40 PM
But having 15+ years of experience, a masters degree from a major player who PAID ME to go to them, and licensing and I am still below 6?



Scary eh? We got people here making easily 10x what us IT guys make and yet they literally do not know the difference between a laptop and a desktop or they don't know how to turn one on. I am NOT exaggerating.

One would think that it is IT that enables these people to make the money they do and in turn, we should be "honored" *give us more money*, yet they seek us out cause we are a dime a dozen and they pay us just as that!

"what? dont like your pay? NEXT"

I hate unions in NYC, but goddamned, if IT had a union... lol

Ninjahedge
12-13-2010, 09:20 AM
Getting that many techies together to agree on something is impossible.

For some reason, construction can have Unions, but Engineers? Hell with that! You can't backstab and underbid a fellow Union member!!!!! :sigh: